For Context: Ethnography Interlude
Episode # 05
🎙️ Episode Overview
Ethnography and Theology — Holding the Tension Together. In this special episode of For Context, hosts Gino Curcuruto and Luke Stehr dive into the unique intersection of ethnography and theology. They explore why social science is a critical tool for the modern pastor and how their personal research projects—ranging from church planting in Philadelphia to CrossFit gyms in Texas—revealed the hidden “backpacks” people carry into their faith. Listen in!
Episode Highlights
Defining the Method: Luke breaks down the difference between quantitative sociology (surveys and big data) and ethnography, a qualitative approach involving participant observation, field notes, and semi-structured interviews.
The “Backpack” Analogy: Drawing from Clemens Sedmak’s Doing Local Theology, the hosts discuss how every person arrives at faith with a “backpack” full of cultural assumptions, family traditions, and past experiences that shape their theology.
Gino’s Research: Investigating why people stay at his church plant, The Table Philadelphia. He discovered that the “pace” of the community and a deep sense of belonging were more impactful than the theological framework alone.
Luke’s Research: A study titled “Muscles, Faith, and Friends.” Luke immersed himself in a CrossFit-based men’s Bible study to observe how shared physical struggle facilitates emotional vulnerability and shapes masculine theological identities.
The Prophetic Voice: Why a theology must be firmly rooted in a local context to be genuinely prophetic. To speak truth into a culture, you must first understand its language and “embodied participation.”
Resources Mentioned
Doing Local Theology- Clemens Sedmak
Writing Ethnographic Field Notes -Robert M. Emerson, Rachel I. Fretz, and Linda L. Shaw
The Glass Church - Mark Mulder & Gerardo Marti
Ecclesiology and Ethnography Network:
For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu.
📚 Resources
Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary
Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ
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I’m Gino Curcuruto.
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I’m Luke Stehr.
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And you’re listening to For Context.
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A podcast about Northern Seminary’s doctorate of ministry in contextual theology.
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Okay,
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well,
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we are doing kind of a shorter,
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different episode today,
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where it’s just Gino and I talking specifically about...
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He’s here.
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But today we’re just talking about ethnography and why it’s such an integral part
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of Northern’s contextual theology program and why you would even do ethnography as
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part of a doctorate where you’re focusing on theology.
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Because it’s not,
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I think we’re discovering that this program sits in a pretty unique space where we
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are trying to hold some things together that don’t often get held together.
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Yeah.
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So, yeah.
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Yeah,
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I think the one of the questions that maybe people might have is like,
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what is ethnography and then why ethnography?
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I want to just say from the beginning that while I do have like a top three
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favorite sociologists and ethnographers,
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I think that I didn’t have a handle on that.
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You don’t have to be that nerdy to do this program, by the way.
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before I was unaware of the controversy between like the all theologians and social
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science like I just wasn’t you know I didn’t I didn’t grow up in the church didn’t
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grow up in those conversations of like now we’re gonna we’re gonna lose our
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theology if we just move to what sociologists say or we’re gonna lose our
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verifiableness if we don’t think like social scientists in the church and so I
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don’t know Luke I don’t want to put you on the spot but like
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Your experience with that,
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your understanding,
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or maybe even some responses to how these things are important together.
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Yeah, I think there’s a growing familiarity with sociology in the church because I think...
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But it’s more along the lens of a quantitative sociological approach.
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And by that, I mean it’s analyzing survey data, watching kind of statistical trends.
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It’s the administration of surveys and trying to get kind of the biggest.
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Mm-hmm.
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And I actually interviewed for that program.
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I didn’t make it in, so that’s not really me bragging.
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But I interviewed for that program years and years and years ago.
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But it’s a quantitative program.
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And so the focus of the program is in this administration of and making sense of
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basically huge data sets.
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So it’s a statistical analysis to try and make sense of what’s happening kind of at
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a macro level across the board.
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Yeah.
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I’m a little salty because my proposed research topic,
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and we’ve talked about this,
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was the religious dimensions of the anti-vax movement.
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And I proposed this in 2018, 2018.
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And man.
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You would have had like a National Institute of Health grant.
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I would have, man.
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So, Kevin Doherty, you could have had me.
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Look at you.
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Yeah.
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So, yeah, I called out.
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I have nothing but respect for that program.
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But it’s a very different approach to sociology than ethnography,
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which leans into the qualitative dimension of the social science.
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And so, ethnography is not demography.
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Demography being like the study of demographics.
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It can make use of demography to help kind of formulate the background assumptions.
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But it...
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In some ways,
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bleeds more into like a cultural anthropology lens in my mind and that you’re a
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participant observer is kind of one of the hallmarks of ethnography.
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So you situate yourself within a context.
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Yeah.
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At varying levels of participation,
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and we can talk about that and how we conducted our ethnographies later.
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But you situate yourself as a participant in a context where you let people know
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that you’re observing them because you want to be ethical.
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But then you take field notes.
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So you kind of are trying to make some shorthand notes about what you’re observing,
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what you’re seeing.
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There’s a surprising amount of methodology behind how you do field notes.
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Well, we read a book for Mark Mulder’s class called Writing Ethnographic Field Notes.
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And it was a doozy of a book about how you take field notes.
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And then you conduct semi-structured interviews.
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So as you’re observing people...
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As a participant, not some detached, objective person watching behind a one-way mirror.
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You’re in it.
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You also conduct interviews with people to get a sense of their experiences.
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And then on the back end,
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after you’ve done that observation and interviewing,
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you want to basically use a coding process to pull together that data in a way that
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starts to make sense of it.
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So how do you start analyzing the themes that people...
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Talked about the things that you noticed in the environment, the interactions.
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Yeah.
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That’s a very long-winded way to describe what ethnography is.
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I think that’s a really helpful baseline for our conversation.
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I mean, we’re not doing a podcast describing a class in ethnography.
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We’re talking about ethnography in this program and our experience.
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And so starting with that description of what it is,
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I think when we talk about ethnography and theology –
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it’s really interesting to me.
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I have a very simplistic understanding of it as saying,
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if we think that the church actually is a social institution in any ways,
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then we could conduct interviews to see how people are functioning socially,
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rather than just staying theoretical in our,
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well,
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this is what we believe theologically and
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And we I see as a participant observer,
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I see all the indicators that that’s working right as the pastor,
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as one of the pastors.
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But actually getting into doing the interviews and hearing how other people’s like
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subjective response and experience.
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And then you kind of gather this qualitative data to say, yeah.
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Maybe there’s something here.
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Maybe there’s something.
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So for me,
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I understand,
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and we read,
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we had some readings where we saw there’s this controversy between this,
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and I never really felt that.
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I felt like,
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I’m not saying I’m putting one,
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I’m not putting social sciences over our theology or anything.
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I just think checks and balances seems pretty reasonable.
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Maybe, I don’t know, is that too naive of you or...
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No, I think we’re both contextual theologians.
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Can we call ourselves that if we haven’t completed the program yet?
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We can.
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We can.
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We are.
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We will.
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We are.
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We’ve talked about this on other episodes.
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One of the core convictions of contextual theology is that all theology emerges out
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of a context.
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And a context is inherently a social phenomenon.
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It is the interaction of people.
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And
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process of doing theology is, in most cases, a social activity.
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I don’t even think about,
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like,
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if I were to write a paper for an academic theology conference,
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even if I was sitting alone in an office to do that,
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I would be
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interacting, whether with people alive or dead, through their written works.
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And then I would then take that paper and present it and field questions and
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navigate responses and have to respond to people’s assumptions,
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questions.
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So theology,
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even at an academic level where we may be tempted to think of it as an isolated
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individual doing an intellectual exercise,
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is inherently a social activity between people.
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And if you’re, I think, a committed Christian...
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Unless you’re making it up.
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Because if you’re a committed Christian,
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you still believe that God is the God of the living and not the dead.
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So even if you’re referencing the things that dead people have written,
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you’re engaging in some sort of social activity with the retired saints.
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Yes, that’s great.
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There’s a discourse happening and that is social.
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That’s a great way of putting it.
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We don’t just make this up.
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We don’t make it up.
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Yeah, I’d love to go down there, but I want to stay on topic.
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We took this class,
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and part of the class was we got to,
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with Dr.
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Mark Mulder,
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who’s a sociologist,
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written.
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written a number of books that are ethnographic studies and had us read others,
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was fascinating and really exciting,
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and then gave us the opportunity to kind of set us loose and say,
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do an ethnography.
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And we did.
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We did wildly different ones.
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And I want to talk about those.
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But yeah,
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I want to talk about those because we came as contextual theologians,
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not sociologists.
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I had taken one class in undergrad in sociology.
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Loved it.
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It was many, many years ago.
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And so I’ll just say I’ll just say I I my ethnography was of the church that I
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pastor that we planted and looking at interviewing people that were mostly leaders.
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And we were asking the question.
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We’re asking this question.
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We know why people leave our church.
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We have that data.
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People often will come and tell us why we’re leaving.
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Not always angrily or with hostility,
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but just,
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you know,
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there’s,
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you’re not this enough or there’s not this.
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But I’d never asked the question and investigated, why do these people stay?
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And so that was kind of my research question.
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And it opened up so many things,
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particularly more through the interviews than the participant observer field notes,
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which were very difficult because I lead lots of the things that I do.
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But that’s a method thing that we could talk about.
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But my paper was
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asking and investigating why do people stay?
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Because I have ideas,
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particularly as the planter and pastor,
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I think like,
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well,
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they all agree with my design for the church.
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That’s why.
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And that is part of it.
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But that wasn’t what I found.
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So we could talk about that.
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But Luke, we did different things.
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What did you do yours on?
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I did not set out to write about this.
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This was like we had to go in and present our ideas to Mulder.
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And I threw out a couple.
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And the one I ended up writing about was the one he got super excited about.
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And it was the one I was least excited about.
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So, Dr. Mulder, if you’re listening, thank you.
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But I had gotten invited to a men’s...
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Bible study, for lack of a better word, happening in the context of a CrossFit gym...
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Uh,
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one person in my church was part of it,
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but most of the people were part of other churches or not part of churches and
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we’re just loosely connected.
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So I spent the summer, I, I’ve never lifted weights in my life.
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So I want to start that out.
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I was not like an active CrossFitter when I started this participant observation.
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Um,
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so I went,
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uh,
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every Sunday to a CrossFit gym where I would work out with people who have arms
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bigger than my legs,
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uh,
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And then sit down in a circle and do a men’s Bible study curriculum with them.
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And so again, a very different type of participant observation.
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So I was not writing field notes while I was working out the curriculum.
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that they used was a video-based curriculum.
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So I would basically sit down as soon as the workout’s over.
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I can barely hold a pen because my arms are shaking.
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And I would scribble down as much as I could remember from all the interactions I
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was trying to watch.
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Before the workout happened, what happened during the workout, what happened immediately after.
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And so I wrote basically a paper studying the intersection of masculinity,
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community,
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and vulnerability within this setting.
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And it was a really...
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uh, just insightful process.
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Uh, and I think I had the advantage of you were studying a group you were familiar with.
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I entered basically a brand new group where I had no context.
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I was a relative stranger to almost everyone.
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Um, and just learned a lot, uh, in the process.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Let me, maybe, maybe just to frame, uh, the conversation on these so we don’t get
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too deep into the papers, which maybe that would be of interest.
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If people are interested, you can definitely access them.
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You can read Gino’s on his substack.
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We’d be happy to share it.
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But I wonder if maybe some questions could be about method,
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though we’ve kind of described that,
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would be about what did we discover?
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What did we learn?
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And maybe what surprised us in that learning?
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And then maybe our general thoughts,
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maybe we could close our time with like,
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what is ethnography and theology to us now that we had that experience?
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Because I want to say thank you to Dr.
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Mulder too,
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because I found I really enjoyed this a lot more than I expected.
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And I thought I was going to really enjoy it.
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But what I learned really kind of is shaping me now.
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So should I go first?
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Should I answer my own question?
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Or do you want to ask me a question?
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Gino, why don’t you tell us?
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I’m going to answer my question.
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Why don’t you tell us?
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I had this thought that people with our church,
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without going too much into detail about the structure,
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but we’ve talked on other episodes about the three circles and these kind of
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localized communities as part of one larger church.
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I thought that people would really be people that they would resonate with the
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framework,
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which was true,
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but what
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And what came out was the sense of belonging was what people...
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And they named the belonging as a place where they were seen and known and
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understood.
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And that had aspects of like...
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The ecclesiological structure was conducive to their belonging.
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The theological,
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like,
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I guess some of our kind of distinct distinctions were our distinctive ways of
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thinking about things were part of that.
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But also the pace.
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The pace of how we do life together and church was a big factor.
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And so they kept using language that I thought they would say some of the things
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that we don’t do well would be coming up at the surface and maybe getting in the
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way of their belonging differently.
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But what they what they seem to say was that actually we just need to keep doing
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what we’re doing in some ways.
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And now these are a lot of people that have been participating for a number of years.
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So they have a little bit more of a grasp on that.
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What surprised me, though, was the idea.
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of the pacing being such a thing along belonging.
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So we move at slow paces.
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We’re not a growth-driven church,
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though we’re not against growth,
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but we want to learn a common language so that we can tell the truth to one another
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and care for and shape discipleship in those ways.
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And as a result,
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I think one of the things that I was interested in researching further is how this
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kind of ethos
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of the church is antithetical to what I would call the church growth movement.
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And which was also something that our professor has written on with the glass
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church,
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his book on Shuler and the others.
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And then also his kind of partner in those books,
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Gerardo Marti has written quite a number on a number of books,
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ethnographies on churches.
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Do you know how would you rate those books?
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I gave them four stars until I was told that I had given them four stars.
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Yeah,
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Gerardo Marti called Gino out at a diner in Chicago over his four-star reviews of
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his books.
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So, Dr. Marti, if you’re listening, we have not forgotten.
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And I thank you for letting me be there for that interaction.
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He did.
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He is such a gracious man and an incredible scholar.
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He shared my post of my paper and he got it.
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And then I said, you know, it’s like four stars.
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That paper is like four stars at best.
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So I derailed you, but I’m going to quote your paper to you.
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Oh, wow.
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Thank you.
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Because I have it pulled out because I love you and I value you and your thoughts.
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I’m actually going to quote one of the people you quoted.
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And so just to get an idea of like, here’s the table.
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You did these semi-structured interviews to kind of get at, why do you stay?
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Why are we different?
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And you’re talking about this tension between the church.
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growth model and the way that the table operates.
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And you have one of your leaders in your church said this,
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I feel like we’re just not a traditional model.
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I think on purpose,
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because that’s,
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I think,
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a lot of people prefer a transactional church where they can pop in and pop out
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when they want to.
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They don’t want to have to be deeply involved.
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For example, the way that we have a homily and then a discussion.
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I love the discussion time.
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We recently had a young man visiting say, this is awesome.
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I love that you guys discuss a homily.
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Are you kidding me?
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I’ve never done this before.
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He was so excited and got emotional about it.
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And so you start to,
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by interviewing,
(00:17:52):
you’re starting to kind of peel some layers back on what,
(00:17:57):
not just what do you as a leader in the congregation notice,
(00:18:00):
but what do the people in the congregation notice,
(00:18:02):
believe,
(00:18:03):
assume?
(00:18:03):
Yeah, yeah.
(00:18:04):
Yeah.
(00:18:05):
I’m going to comment on that and say that one of the beautiful things about this
(00:18:11):
experience for me was I feel like I do a lot of work in silence in some ways.
(00:18:21):
I’m not making any kind of negative statement about the people at the table, Philadelphia.
(00:18:26):
We just don’t have a lot of margin to talk about the things that we’re doing
(00:18:32):
because we’re doing them.
(00:18:33):
And some of those reflect.
(00:18:35):
So when I’m talking about church structure and strategy,
(00:18:38):
I’m often thinking about,
(00:18:39):
yeah,
(00:18:40):
I think this is working and that’s because no one’s complaining or,
(00:18:43):
you know,
(00:18:43):
I heard a couple of positives or whatever.
(00:18:46):
But what I don’t always know is, is it doing the thing that we were aiming for it to do?
(00:18:52):
And I sit down and do these interviews and I’m like blown away by the way that
(00:18:56):
these amazing people are describing this.
(00:19:00):
the way God is at work in their lives through the spaces that we’re opening up and
(00:19:04):
the intentional directions that we take.
(00:19:08):
And so that was just a huge positive because I thought,
(00:19:11):
oh,
(00:19:11):
actually,
(00:19:12):
they’re picking up a lot more of this than I may have been aware of.
(00:19:17):
And I don’t mean intellectually, I mean embodied participation.
(00:19:21):
They’re doing these things and have these stories to tell.
(00:19:25):
And I don’t always get access to every one of those just because of limits of time.
(00:19:29):
So if you’re listening and you’re at all involved in the church,
(00:19:34):
sociology is super helpful to kind of check and see if your theology is actually
(00:19:40):
working out to the ground the way that you wanted it to.
(00:19:44):
Yeah.
(00:19:46):
Yeah.
(00:19:47):
I think we read another book for Roxborough’s class,
(00:19:51):
which I think gets at this and why there’s this interplay of contextual theology
(00:19:56):
and why you would do ethnography as part of that.
(00:19:59):
So there’s this book by Clarence Sedmak,
(00:20:02):
and he writes that theology is always done with a backpack.
(00:20:05):
And in this backpack,
(00:20:06):
we find all the things that our family and friends,
(00:20:08):
our culture and tradition,
(00:20:09):
our training and experience have packed for us.
(00:20:11):
We have packed only a few things ourselves.
(00:20:13):
We hardly know about all the things we carry.
(00:20:16):
No question.
(00:20:17):
It is a mess.
(00:20:18):
Our backpack is full of things we do not use and it lacks other things we need.
(00:20:22):
It contains Proverbs we’ve heard,
(00:20:24):
the books we’ve read,
(00:20:24):
our memories of people and encounters and experiences,
(00:20:26):
and our favorite words and ideas.
(00:20:28):
No two theologians have the same backpack.
(00:20:31):
And so by doing ethnography,
(00:20:33):
what we’re attempting to do,
(00:20:34):
if we’re going to use Sed Mac’s analogy,
(00:20:37):
is we’re trying to open up the backpack of whatever,
(00:20:40):
maybe a congregation,
(00:20:41):
maybe it’s a men’s group in a CrossFit gym.
(00:20:43):
We’re trying to open up the backpack and pull out stuff and go, well, what is this?
(00:20:47):
And why is it here?
(00:20:48):
And what is it?
(00:20:49):
What is it doing in the backpack and how is it impacting how you’re carrying out your life?
(00:20:54):
So ethnography is an attempt to analyze the contents of the backpack.
(00:20:58):
Yeah, that’s great.
(00:20:59):
I just happened to find out that in the backpack were a lot of positive things.
(00:21:04):
And so if I could do if I had done more interviews,
(00:21:07):
if I could have done a broader,
(00:21:08):
I probably would have gotten to some of the the people that had some questions or
(00:21:14):
concerns.
(00:21:15):
So I think my paper reads way too positive and.
(00:21:18):
Because of what was in the backpack,
(00:21:20):
the experience of the others as well,
(00:21:22):
and how they were maybe living out those things,
(00:21:26):
which was greatly encouraging.
(00:21:28):
And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
(00:21:29):
But I think sometimes that could become...
(00:21:33):
It could sound too aspirational in some ways, but it was good.
(00:21:37):
It was a good experience.
(00:21:38):
So how that’s changing me,
(00:21:40):
I think was part of my other question or how it’s changing is I am thinking about
(00:21:44):
further research.
(00:21:45):
I mean, we will be writing a dissertation and I probably will do the one.
(00:21:48):
work on our church.
(00:21:50):
I don’t know.
(00:21:51):
But I did submit this paper,
(00:21:54):
and I know you did as well,
(00:21:55):
but I’m not going to steal your thunder,
(00:21:57):
to the Ecclesiology and Ethnography Networks Conference and got to present on it in
(00:22:03):
Chicago.
(00:22:04):
And I further research,
(00:22:06):
I presented it more as a work in progress to say I want to expand because I think
(00:22:11):
there’s something to when I’m studying some social theorists about acceleration and
(00:22:16):
the pace at which life is moving.
(00:22:18):
And then when you think about AI, just kind of speeding things up.
(00:22:23):
And then giving people free time,
(00:22:25):
not just unemployment,
(00:22:26):
but I’m talking about if the computers do the computer things and people can do the
(00:22:31):
embodied human things in a most positive sense,
(00:22:35):
then the pace of our life is still going to change.
(00:22:37):
keep going fast.
(00:22:39):
And what does that mean for the church?
(00:22:41):
And what kind of counter witness could a slower paced church that says,
(00:22:47):
hey,
(00:22:47):
we’re going to move at the pace of relationship,
(00:22:49):
not the pace of society around us.
(00:22:52):
And so I’d like to dig into that more.
(00:22:53):
I think there might be something more there than what I initially thought.
(00:22:58):
That’s exciting.
(00:23:01):
I want to correct myself.
(00:23:01):
I said Clarence Sedmek and it’s Clemens.
(00:23:04):
I
(00:23:04):
Clemens said Mac.
(00:23:05):
Yeah, that’s right.
(00:23:06):
What was the name of that book?
(00:23:07):
Do you have that in front of you?
(00:23:08):
Doing Local Theology.
(00:23:10):
Doing Local Theology.
(00:23:11):
We read that for Roxborough, right?
(00:23:12):
Correct.
(00:23:14):
Yeah, that’s good.
(00:23:17):
Doing Local Theology was a fantastic book as well.
(00:23:20):
We should have a list of books in our show notes or something.
(00:23:23):
We’re going to have show notes.
(00:23:25):
We’re up in our game each episode.
(00:23:28):
Not just a transcript anymore, folks.
(00:23:30):
Show notes.
(00:23:31):
Show notes.
(00:23:32):
So I’ve read your paper.
(00:23:37):
I’ve seen you present on it.
(00:23:39):
There’s the spoiler.
(00:23:41):
I love your paper.
(00:23:42):
I love the work that you did.
(00:23:44):
I think it’s fascinating in so many ways.
(00:23:46):
Yeah.
(00:23:48):
what, what did you get surprised by?
(00:23:51):
What did you learn?
(00:23:54):
Oh man.
(00:23:55):
Uh, so many things.
(00:23:57):
Um, I’m such a man’s man, you know, we’re laughing.
(00:24:04):
I’m not, you can’t see me.
(00:24:05):
Your sarcasm might not come through on this episode.
(00:24:08):
I’m five 11 skinny.
(00:24:11):
Uh, I have better hair than half the women in my church and they would agree.
(00:24:16):
Um,
(00:24:18):
And you’re in Texas.
(00:24:19):
I’m in Texas.
(00:24:21):
And I don’t wear cowboy boots.
(00:24:22):
I don’t drive a big truck.
(00:24:24):
I am not a stereotypical man in Texas.
(00:24:26):
That’s where I live.
(00:24:29):
So I went really hardcore into the participant observer role that you do in
(00:24:34):
ethnography in that I quite literally showed up every week and did whatever the
(00:24:41):
heck you do at a CrossFit gym.
(00:24:43):
um i still don’t know what i did uh lifted some heavy things and almost passed out
(00:24:48):
a few times and all of that um and in the you know with the intention of like
(00:24:55):
there’s something happening here relationally between these men there’s something
(00:24:58):
going on uh with an emotional connection and a display of vulnerable like an open
(00:25:06):
vulnerability with one another that
(00:25:09):
was really surprising and so I part of ethnography and when you do an ethnography
(00:25:14):
is you review the literature and kind of the social science literature in your area
(00:25:18):
and so I delved a little bit into masculine theory which is not something I’d ever
(00:25:23):
really read much of I’ve read a decent amount of feminist literature had not really
(00:25:27):
read any kind of serious study of masculine theory learn there are actually a
(00:25:32):
variety of masculine theories and so it’s interesting to try and like okay well
(00:25:36):
what
(00:25:37):
what I actually see playing out.
(00:25:40):
Um, and then how is it impacting the theology of these men in this group?
(00:25:44):
And not just how’s it impacting,
(00:25:45):
but what’s the theology that they’re actually talking about,
(00:25:49):
that they’re embodying,
(00:25:50):
that they are letting guide and shape their lives.
(00:25:54):
And so honestly, I discovered a lot of things that are just intention that I think, um,
(00:26:02):
we don’t necessarily make a lot of space for.
(00:26:05):
We want to just say, like, complementarianism is bad and always has bad results.
(00:26:11):
I’m not a complementarian, so before you come at me, I’m not one.
(00:26:17):
But it was interesting to see people responding to super complementarian biblical
(00:26:22):
studies,
(00:26:23):
Bible study.
(00:26:24):
There was actually not a lot of Bible in it.
(00:26:25):
So...
(00:26:28):
It was interesting to watch them respond to that and then the conversations that
(00:26:31):
emerged afterwards and then also,
(00:26:34):
you know,
(00:26:34):
have that complementarian theology be taught.
(00:26:38):
But then to have this counterbalance of like, there are men who are just openly crying.
(00:26:44):
Like we’ve done a workout together and we’re sitting around and having a discussion
(00:26:47):
and they’re openly crying and...
(00:26:51):
talking about how it’s okay and good for men to be emotionally expressive and to
(00:26:57):
support one another and to hug one another and to like have rich,
(00:27:01):
deep connections with one another and how that’s necessary.
(00:27:04):
And so it was just really interesting to walk into this space where I really didn’t
(00:27:08):
know anyone,
(00:27:09):
which I think helped me.
(00:27:10):
Like I was definitely a participant,
(00:27:13):
but I also got to kind of have that role because I’m so new to the group.
(00:27:16):
I definitely have this observer role.
(00:27:18):
And it was a little more natural for me to like be quieter and hang back and just
(00:27:22):
kind of watch things.
(00:27:25):
I think of I’m sorry, I just interject.
(00:27:28):
I think of that statement like you don’t judge a book by its cover kind of idea.
(00:27:35):
When you when I think about.
(00:27:37):
What I envisioned as I knew you were doing this because we were in class together
(00:27:40):
and you’re doing these notes and I’m thinking like my expectations of CrossFit in
(00:27:45):
Texas kind of with this Bible study video curriculum that I was like,
(00:27:51):
I don’t like any of these people.
(00:27:52):
They’re not going to be my, that’s not going to be my people.
(00:27:54):
And Luke is going to have a hard time.
(00:27:56):
And so I just want to,
(00:27:57):
I want to try to connect this,
(00:27:59):
or maybe you can do it of like,
(00:28:02):
as a contextual theologian,
(00:28:04):
how important it is for you to show up and be present and listen and participate to
(00:28:10):
understand more about what’s going on than what I might assume wrongly about
(00:28:17):
muscles, muscly guys, lifting weights.
(00:28:20):
My paper is called Muscles, Faith, and Friends.
(00:28:23):
There it is, yes.
(00:28:25):
Muscles, Faith, and Friends.
(00:28:27):
Watching a very, like, complementarian...
(00:28:32):
Loosely Bible study curriculum that and so what I’m what I’m trying to communicate
(00:28:38):
is I might differ with every aspect of this and you might,
(00:28:44):
too.
(00:28:45):
We might have like a counter.
(00:28:47):
for everything but when you were there you saw goodness and beauty and and things
(00:28:52):
happen that was surprising probably to you but actually to me it was even more
(00:28:58):
surprising as a non-participant like you just telling me this is what i saw so i
(00:29:02):
don’t know can you speak to that a little bit more i think there’s and maybe this
(00:29:08):
is like on a pastoral side and then i’ll try to speak to a more academic side like
(00:29:11):
you can’t pastor people you don’t love um
(00:29:16):
And so I think part,
(00:29:18):
and then on the more academic side,
(00:29:19):
I don’t know that you can really do ethnography well if you’re not going to try and
(00:29:22):
empathize.
(00:29:25):
And so I think part of allowing yourself to be a participant observer is to allow
(00:29:29):
yourself to observe and be aware of the emotional experiences of the people that
(00:29:38):
you are participating with and observing and allowing yourself to
(00:29:46):
Just appreciate those for what they are,
(00:29:48):
to let them be what they are,
(00:29:50):
and not to judge them for what they’re not.
(00:29:54):
There’s a lot that was said in the Bible study I didn’t agree with.
(00:29:58):
There’s some interesting theological things that got said.
(00:30:03):
I think I only interjected once, and that was part of my...
(00:30:07):
I had a church member there that...
(00:30:09):
something was said that it was like this is not at all okay like and all the things
(00:30:14):
that i think are not okay this is really not okay and i’m gonna say something and
(00:30:17):
like it was basically like a prosperity gospel uh like man if you just do
(00:30:21):
everything right and you don’t swear and you work hard jesus will bless your life
(00:30:26):
um and mike you’re rich and i’m like
(00:30:28):
yeah no jesus says life gets harder if you follow him uh more wonderful but yeah
(00:30:38):
harder like this is not easy and so yeah do i agree with every single thing that
(00:30:45):
was said nope i don’t and it’s actually okay i don’t have to agree with everything
(00:30:50):
because i can also recognize that like
(00:30:52):
Even if I disagree with the contents of this Bible study at the end of the day,
(00:30:55):
I’d encourage a lot of them to go home and be loving and supportive husbands and
(00:30:58):
devoted fathers.
(00:31:00):
And I may not agree with the assumptions that got them there.
(00:31:04):
Yeah.
(00:31:05):
Yeah.
(00:31:06):
And I’m not a pragmatist, so I’m not trying to argue that the ends justify the means.
(00:31:11):
Right.
(00:31:14):
Go ahead.
(00:31:14):
I’m sorry.
(00:31:15):
I can appreciate that group for what it is and those people for who they are.
(00:31:19):
the key thing to me that you said is like, is, is how this cultivates empathy.
(00:31:24):
And if it doesn’t,
(00:31:25):
I mean,
(00:31:26):
that,
(00:31:26):
that’s,
(00:31:26):
that to me feels like a statement about the intersection of theology and
(00:31:32):
ethnography,
(00:31:33):
because I can imagine you could be a social scientist and not necessarily have to
(00:31:38):
have any empathy for what’s going on,
(00:31:41):
but the,
(00:31:42):
the kind of the environment that you were in,
(00:31:44):
what they were doing and who you are as a person,
(00:31:47):
um,
(00:31:49):
That connection,
(00:31:50):
because I was talking about my prejudgment of people and you going in and finding
(00:31:57):
that you can be empathetic as you’re in a space,
(00:32:00):
is what we talk about as followers of Jesus to be present.
(00:32:04):
to see how God is at work in a space.
(00:32:08):
I think this is why I find ethnography so helpful to cultivate these skills of
(00:32:14):
awareness,
(00:32:15):
of observing.
(00:32:16):
And then also you’re talking about the connection as humans, which is beautiful.
(00:32:20):
Yeah.
(00:32:21):
And then I think on the theological side, like,
(00:32:24):
we have to recognize everyone is a theologian.
(00:32:25):
That’s the backpack that Ted Mac is talking about.
(00:32:28):
Everyone’s coming with a backpack and that’s their theology and it’s shaped by so many things.
(00:32:34):
And there may be some things in their backpack that just really aren’t good.
(00:32:37):
Um, but I can’t,
(00:32:40):
help bring about a more good beautiful and true theology if i don’t understand
(00:32:45):
what’s in their backpack yes and i can’t like and i think even said mac talks about
(00:32:50):
like there’s a prophetic role here and he’s talking about jesus challenging local
(00:32:54):
culture and said mac in doing local theology says jesus raises his prophetic voice
(00:33:00):
after having been introduced to the local culture he does not start from scratch
(00:33:04):
genuine prophecy has to use familiar concepts in order to have an impact
(00:33:10):
Only a theology firmly rooted in a culture can be genuinely prophetic in that culture.
(00:33:16):
Prophecy is effective when it reorganizes knowledge already part of the culture.
(00:33:20):
To stand completely outside is to be ignored.
(00:33:24):
Thus,
(00:33:24):
the more contextually rooted a theology,
(00:33:26):
the more acute can be its prophetic voice and action.
(00:33:29):
So I can’t speak to the theology of a group of people.
(00:33:33):
whether they be the table philly or a group of jabronis doing crossfit when it’s
(00:33:39):
115 degrees outside in dfw um unless i enter into that space and i start to try and
(00:33:45):
understand what they’re bringing in and that’s why ethnography and theology go
(00:33:50):
together yeah amen amen the the um
(00:33:57):
Also,
(00:33:57):
with that,
(00:33:58):
I was thinking that the idea of being in a context,
(00:34:03):
we’re not just talking about a linguistic thing,
(00:34:05):
like knowing the language.
(00:34:07):
I feel like a lot of theologians want to just say...
(00:34:11):
You’ve got to know the language and then you can speak the truth to them.
(00:34:15):
I think there’s a relational thing.
(00:34:16):
That’s why I want to come back to empathy.
(00:34:19):
And it’s not merely they’ve got to know that you love them before they will listen to you.
(00:34:24):
It’s partially that.
(00:34:26):
There’s something about, in a world of antagonisms...
(00:34:31):
And all of these things like being present in some ways demonstrates that you’re
(00:34:36):
not going to bolt as soon as there’s controversy.
(00:34:39):
You’re not speaking something so that they will change and you can leave.
(00:34:43):
You’re saying, I want to unfold and unwind.
(00:34:47):
our differences here.
(00:34:48):
I feel like that’s how prophetic words in context are very helpful,
(00:34:54):
is I don’t see,
(00:34:55):
maybe you do,
(00:34:56):
I don’t see a lot of people instantly changing when people
(00:35:01):
People are being truth tellers to them in some way.
(00:35:03):
I see people going,
(00:35:05):
wait,
(00:35:06):
but if that means if you’re saying this,
(00:35:08):
I have to change this about my life and I’m really scared about that.
(00:35:12):
What do I do with that?
(00:35:13):
And then we have to like be present.
(00:35:14):
You see what I’m saying?
(00:35:15):
Like there’s.
(00:35:16):
And I think that’s why your point is so important to me,
(00:35:20):
that of being present,
(00:35:21):
of having the understanding through the ethnography of what actually is happening
(00:35:27):
here in this culture,
(00:35:29):
and then the theological understanding to speak into that through the language of
(00:35:34):
the culture and in the place with presence.
(00:35:38):
Yeah.
(00:35:41):
Couldn’t have said it better if you were David Fitch himself.
(00:35:44):
Oh, geez.
(00:35:45):
That’s problems.
(00:35:46):
That’s problems.
(00:35:47):
So you submitted your paper and it was accepted to the same conference.
(00:35:52):
Actually, three of us from our cohort, which is like...
(00:35:54):
Which is super exciting.
(00:35:56):
Super exciting.
(00:35:58):
really, really proud of both of you.
(00:36:00):
Uh, I only got to, I got to see our other cohort members presentation.
(00:36:03):
I didn’t get to see yours, so I’m very sorry.
(00:36:06):
Um, and I only got to see the end of his cause we presented at the same time.
(00:36:10):
Uh,
(00:36:10):
but,
(00:36:11):
uh,
(00:36:12):
yeah,
(00:36:12):
what,
(00:36:13):
I mean,
(00:36:13):
it was just truly exciting to get to,
(00:36:16):
to share what I’d worked on.
(00:36:18):
Um, I honestly expected more like critical pushback than I got.
(00:36:23):
I know that that experience varied for all of us.
(00:36:27):
Um,
(00:36:28):
But I think it was exciting for me to see that my paper gave people hope for the
(00:36:34):
men in their lives.
(00:36:36):
And that there could be significant spaces for men to experience deep human
(00:36:42):
connection with one another.
(00:36:44):
And I think one of the things we have maybe lost...
(00:36:49):
And I think men’s ministry and women’s ministry often get this wrong.
(00:36:53):
So I’m not trying to...
(00:36:55):
do this uh but i think we’ve neglected the significance of homosocial relationships
(00:37:00):
relationships between people the same sex platonic homosocial homosocial
(00:37:04):
relationships um
(00:37:08):
And I think for men,
(00:37:09):
especially what this paper shows is there’s a real necessary component for,
(00:37:16):
I think,
(00:37:16):
one of the things that fueled the emotional connection was an intense shared
(00:37:20):
experience of struggle.
(00:37:23):
And I think that’s fairly well documented.
(00:37:25):
So that’s not a shock.
(00:37:27):
But I think if we’re thinking about,
(00:37:28):
you know,
(00:37:28):
if you’re someone out there running a men’s ministry for your church,
(00:37:31):
don’t just always make it a breakfast.
(00:37:33):
Yeah.
(00:37:35):
Think about some sort of shared physical tactile activity because I think you will
(00:37:41):
see some sort of opening up afterward.
(00:37:45):
So pair that with your emotional disclosure time, whatever that may end up being.
(00:37:50):
Yeah, that’s good.
(00:37:52):
That’s good.
(00:37:53):
I think maybe as we kind of wrap up our time on this one, I’m thinking –
(00:37:58):
I want to share a little bit and then maybe you could as well about just being in
(00:38:02):
that academic conference.
(00:38:03):
I’d never presented a paper before.
(00:38:05):
Maybe you have.
(00:38:06):
Nope.
(00:38:07):
OK, so it was new to both of us.
(00:38:09):
We threw our names in there because we’re like, hey, this was really interesting.
(00:38:12):
And one of the things that I thought was fascinating was.
(00:38:19):
with the three of us being there from this class,
(00:38:22):
we had a perspective that was very church centric.
(00:38:25):
I mean,
(00:38:26):
I know you were doing a men’s ministry,
(00:38:27):
not your church,
(00:38:29):
but it was like a representation of we’re not sociologists trying to understand
(00:38:34):
religion.
(00:38:35):
We’re, we’re church people trying to understand humanity in some ways.
(00:38:41):
And, and I’m not, I’m not taking anything from any of the other presenters.
(00:38:44):
There’s some amazing work there, but,
(00:38:47):
But I found so much hope
(00:38:50):
for the church in the conclusions that we and others made in that.
(00:38:56):
And so I was surprised and encouraged by that.
(00:38:59):
But I also thought if we weren’t there,
(00:39:03):
I’m not sure how much the voices of the everyday pastor would be included.
(00:39:10):
And it’s not because they’re excluding it.
(00:39:12):
This is a group, ecclesiology and ethnography.
(00:39:16):
They’re not just all social scientists.
(00:39:17):
Yeah, they want to bring it together.
(00:39:18):
Yeah.
(00:39:19):
They want to bring it together.
(00:39:20):
And they’ve been doing this for a while.
(00:39:21):
And I just found it such a welcoming group for someone with very low academic
(00:39:25):
credentials,
(00:39:27):
but a high view of the church and ethnography.
(00:39:31):
And so my experience was really,
(00:39:33):
really positive,
(00:39:34):
even though it was definitely disrupting me in a lot of good ways.
(00:39:39):
Yeah.
(00:39:39):
Yeah.
(00:39:40):
I would agree.
(00:39:41):
And I think I would say to anyone out there who’s leading in a ministry context,
(00:39:46):
these tools are so helpful.
(00:39:48):
They’re so beneficial.
(00:39:51):
I think learning to be a good ethnographer can only help you as you try to be your
(00:39:57):
congregation’s theologian in residence.
(00:40:00):
Yeah.
(00:40:01):
Yeah,
(00:40:02):
it’s going to give you the tools you need to understand how to open up people’s
(00:40:06):
backpacks and not in a way that’s like you’re going to rip it off their shoulders
(00:40:09):
and start dissecting what they’ve got.
(00:40:10):
But a way to journey with people and start understanding what they’re carrying as
(00:40:14):
far as background assumptions,
(00:40:15):
culture,
(00:40:16):
stories.
(00:40:17):
uh kind of what’s under the water what’s under the surface and so i would say uh
(00:40:24):
maybe you have started listening and you’re like maybe this program’s for me do it
(00:40:28):
yeah look into the contextual theology program at northern and that’s my shameless
(00:40:32):
plug for it because it’s changed my life it’s made me a better um a better pastor
(00:40:39):
just to be able to understand what what is going on what is
(00:40:44):
the thing that people are carrying with them?
(00:40:46):
And how do I understand that?
(00:40:47):
And now how do I speak to it in a way that they can receive?
(00:40:51):
Man, that’s good.
(00:40:53):
I want to do an episode with you one time where we talk about the ways this program
(00:40:56):
is changing us as humans or helping us as humans in ways,
(00:40:59):
because I think about almost every single day,
(00:41:02):
something I’ve learned from this program or the MATM program,
(00:41:06):
Theology of
(00:41:06):
mission um it helps me relate with my kids all gen z-ers and like understanding
(00:41:14):
these like constructs of everything it’s just really helpful so yeah but i also
(00:41:19):
want to just thank everyone for listening and uh go ahead and give us a review
(00:41:23):
we’ve never asked for a review but we because we’re not really great at these whole
(00:41:27):
podcast things but we want you to like and share and give us a review we’ll take
(00:41:31):
negative reviews just give us a review it’s super helpful
(00:41:35):
And if you’re on Substack, subscribe.
(00:41:37):
Yes.
(00:41:37):
Because I don’t think you can really review a podcast on Substack.
(00:41:40):
But anywhere else, leave a review.
(00:41:43):
So thanks for listening.
(00:41:44):
We’ll catch you next time.
